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	<title>Comments on: A Response to Alva Noë&#8217;s &#8220;Art and the Limits of Neuroscience&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://thebeautifulbrain.com/2011/12/response-to-alva-noe-art-and-the-limits-of-neuroscience/</link>
	<description>The Beautiful Brain Podcast explores the latest findings from the ever-growing field of neuroscience, with particular attention to the dialogue between the arts and sciences. In this monthly program, host Noah Hutton reports on news from the world of brain science, interviews important thinkers about their work, and reviews new literature in the field. The show illuminates important new questions about creativity, the mind of the artist, and the mind of the observer that modern neuroscience is helping us to answer, or at least to provide part of an answer. Instances where art seeks to answer questions of a traditionally scientific nature are also of great interest, and for that reason you will hear from artists as well as scientists on The Beautiful Brain. Subscribe today to receive a brand new episode each month.</description>
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		<title>By: Noah Hutton</title>
		<link>http://thebeautifulbrain.com/2011/12/response-to-alva-noe-art-and-the-limits-of-neuroscience/comment-page-1/#comment-4227</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah Hutton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2011 23:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Alexander,

I believe we have a fundamental difference of opinion. 

In yours and Noë&#039;s position, there is a sense that the limits of empirical neuroscience can already be known today. Therefore most work that has already been done and the future of the field gets cast in a general shroud of relative unimportance when it comes to these questions of consciousness, art and meaning. I can see how this position sounds good anyone who is vaguely skeptical about scientific materialism-- but to me, by confidently assuming there are limits before we&#039;ve even come close to a level of investigation capable of seeing the whole picture, it closes the door on a world rich with wonder and awe: the neuroscientific exploration of the brain, presently in its early stages.

It is true that, like a joke, a world of context allows the communication between art and observer to function with meaning-- if you see above, I agreed with this section of Noë&#039;s piece. But where you and I part ways is that you seem to see this insight as reason to believe that meaning in art resides in this &quot;larger system,&quot; which you denote with the capitalized Consciousness. That &quot;patterns&quot; of firing neurons inside the brain cannot account for the meaning of art. At this moment when you and Noë move out of our heads, I prefer to stay behind, because I believe everything you&#039;re mentioning can be found right there, in the head. That world of references and context, language, learned culture, our perception of the environment and geography through our senses and internal orientation systems-- if neuroscience has taught and continues to teach us anything, it&#039;s that all these elements of our conscious and non-conscious lives are contained in the brain, suspended as it is within our heads. Using our present-day, fairly rudimentary understanding of the human brain to declare that the meaning of art can&#039;t possibly be contained inside the brain is irresponsibly dismissive.

Two brains interacting to make art or perceive it is a social act of communication, yes. But let&#039;s not mistake the act (communication, socialization) two or more things do together, by definition, for the things themselves (brains) behind the act.

We grow up together in an increasingly globalized culture. We learn this culture through the constant reorganization of our nervous system. And thus when art has meaning for us, we shouldn&#039;t confuse the fact that others may find similar meaning in it as evidence for this extended &quot;Consciousness&quot; you speak of. Likewise, we need not be dissuaded that all the meaning there is for each of us is achieved by an as-of-yet poorly understood universe of electrochemical activity between our ears. This fact is awe-inspiring and opens the door to a wonderful universe of inquiry.

Lastly, you&#039;re right, you could study the effect of perceiving a Matisse on the digestive system and generate data. Think of all the possibilities! But instead of sitting around thinking up worthless and absurd experiments, I&#039;d rather listen to scientists who respect the vast unknown and generate intelligent hypotheses to begin to answer the unanswered. Maybe studying the basic dynamics of V1 and some speculative work into other regions is where neuroaesthetics operates for now, by necessity. But I prefer to cheer from the sidelines and supportively nudge rather than denigrate and confidently declare the permanent limits of our understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alexander,</p>
<p>I believe we have a fundamental difference of opinion. </p>
<p>In yours and Noë&#8217;s position, there is a sense that the limits of empirical neuroscience can already be known today. Therefore most work that has already been done and the future of the field gets cast in a general shroud of relative unimportance when it comes to these questions of consciousness, art and meaning. I can see how this position sounds good anyone who is vaguely skeptical about scientific materialism&#8211; but to me, by confidently assuming there are limits before we&#8217;ve even come close to a level of investigation capable of seeing the whole picture, it closes the door on a world rich with wonder and awe: the neuroscientific exploration of the brain, presently in its early stages.</p>
<p>It is true that, like a joke, a world of context allows the communication between art and observer to function with meaning&#8211; if you see above, I agreed with this section of Noë&#8217;s piece. But where you and I part ways is that you seem to see this insight as reason to believe that meaning in art resides in this &#8220;larger system,&#8221; which you denote with the capitalized Consciousness. That &#8220;patterns&#8221; of firing neurons inside the brain cannot account for the meaning of art. At this moment when you and Noë move out of our heads, I prefer to stay behind, because I believe everything you&#8217;re mentioning can be found right there, in the head. That world of references and context, language, learned culture, our perception of the environment and geography through our senses and internal orientation systems&#8211; if neuroscience has taught and continues to teach us anything, it&#8217;s that all these elements of our conscious and non-conscious lives are contained in the brain, suspended as it is within our heads. Using our present-day, fairly rudimentary understanding of the human brain to declare that the meaning of art can&#8217;t possibly be contained inside the brain is irresponsibly dismissive.</p>
<p>Two brains interacting to make art or perceive it is a social act of communication, yes. But let&#8217;s not mistake the act (communication, socialization) two or more things do together, by definition, for the things themselves (brains) behind the act.</p>
<p>We grow up together in an increasingly globalized culture. We learn this culture through the constant reorganization of our nervous system. And thus when art has meaning for us, we shouldn&#8217;t confuse the fact that others may find similar meaning in it as evidence for this extended &#8220;Consciousness&#8221; you speak of. Likewise, we need not be dissuaded that all the meaning there is for each of us is achieved by an as-of-yet poorly understood universe of electrochemical activity between our ears. This fact is awe-inspiring and opens the door to a wonderful universe of inquiry.</p>
<p>Lastly, you&#8217;re right, you could study the effect of perceiving a Matisse on the digestive system and generate data. Think of all the possibilities! But instead of sitting around thinking up worthless and absurd experiments, I&#8217;d rather listen to scientists who respect the vast unknown and generate intelligent hypotheses to begin to answer the unanswered. Maybe studying the basic dynamics of V1 and some speculative work into other regions is where neuroaesthetics operates for now, by necessity. But I prefer to cheer from the sidelines and supportively nudge rather than denigrate and confidently declare the permanent limits of our understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: alexander</title>
		<link>http://thebeautifulbrain.com/2011/12/response-to-alva-noe-art-and-the-limits-of-neuroscience/comment-page-1/#comment-4226</link>
		<dc:creator>alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2011 16:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It seems to me your missing his point. He is focused the limits of empirical neuroscience, not it&#039;s uselessness. He views the brain as a part in a much larger system called Consciousness - which includes the environment; language, culture, geography etc. He is arguing that “ART” (as a sort of inherently social and wholistic concept) exists at the level of Consciousness. The brain may respond to harmony, sunsets or a pretty face with certain patterns, but those patterns can’t be said to have meaning to an individual (which it must to in order to be “Art”) without the Consciousness coming into play. You could also study the effect of a Matisse on the digestive system and generate data.

No man is an Island - art is inherently social - this make sense to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me your missing his point. He is focused the limits of empirical neuroscience, not it&#8217;s uselessness. He views the brain as a part in a much larger system called Consciousness &#8211; which includes the environment; language, culture, geography etc. He is arguing that “ART” (as a sort of inherently social and wholistic concept) exists at the level of Consciousness. The brain may respond to harmony, sunsets or a pretty face with certain patterns, but those patterns can’t be said to have meaning to an individual (which it must to in order to be “Art”) without the Consciousness coming into play. You could also study the effect of a Matisse on the digestive system and generate data.</p>
<p>No man is an Island &#8211; art is inherently social &#8211; this make sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: gregorylent</title>
		<link>http://thebeautifulbrain.com/2011/12/response-to-alva-noe-art-and-the-limits-of-neuroscience/comment-page-1/#comment-4212</link>
		<dc:creator>gregorylent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Dec 2011 01:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the original article AND this response are examples of why, when i want to know about consciousness, i stick with yogis.

neuroscience? stick with the physical, though even that will exceed the fundamental model, that the brain makes consciousness. crikey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the original article AND this response are examples of why, when i want to know about consciousness, i stick with yogis.</p>
<p>neuroscience? stick with the physical, though even that will exceed the fundamental model, that the brain makes consciousness. crikey.</p>
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